Discussion:
JESUS CHRIST WENT TO THE CROSS SO YOU CAN GO TO HEAVEN - The good news is that God came from Heaven to earth in the person of Jesus Christ over 2000 years ago and died for our past, present and future sins(misdeeds). He was born in the land of Israel supernaturally to a virgin Jewish woman named Mary. He lived a sinless life for thirty-three years and then sacrificed His sinless blood and died on a cross to pay the death penalty for our sins.....
(too old to reply)
E***@sbcglobal.net
2005-02-12 16:20:43 UTC
Permalink
Good News!


Do you know how simple it is to go to Heaven after this
life has ended?


The good news is that God came from Heaven to earth
in the person of Jesus Christ over 2000 years ago and
died for our past, present and future sins(misdeeds).
He was born in the land of Israel supernaturally to a
virgin Jewish woman named Mary. He lived a sinless life
for thirty-three years and then sacrificed His sinless
blood and died on a cross to pay the death penalty for
our sins.


After Jesus died He rose from the dead three days later
as He said He would. The Holy Bible also tells us that
Jesus Christ ascended into Heaven and that all who accept
Him as their Lord and Saviour will live forever with Him
in Heaven where there is no more death, sorrow, sickness
and pain.


The Holy Bible very clearly explains how simple it is
to be saved and on your way to Heaven, "For if you
confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe
in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you
WILL BE SAVED." (Romans 10:9)


You can be saved right now and on your way to Heaven if
you will open your heart to Jesus and pray the following
prayer:


Dear Jesus Christ, I want to be saved so that I can have
a home in Heaven when I die. I agree with You that I am a
sinner. I believe You love me and want to save me. I
believe that You bled and died on the cross to pay the
penalty for my sins. I believe that You rose from the dead.
Please forgive my sins and come into my heart and be my
Lord and Saviour. Thank You Lord Jesus Christ for
forgiving me and saving me through Your merciful grace.
Amen.


You are now a Christian if you said the prayer and allowed
God to save you. Welcome to the family of God.


If you decide to wait till later you may die before you get
another chance to be saved because none of us knows
exactly when we will die.


Have a great day!
Internet Evangelist R.L. Grossi



Free Online Bible
http://www.biblegateway.com


Free Online Movies
http://www.tbn.org/index.php/8/1.html


Animation
http://www.gieson.com/Library/projects/animations/walk/index.html


The Passion Of The Christ
http://www.worshipmusic.com/0310263670.html


Beware Of Cults
http://www.carm.org/cults/cultlist.htm


About Hell
http://www.equip.org/free/DH198.htm


Is Jesus God?
http://www.powertochange.com/questions/qna2.html
Julia De Silva
2005-02-13 10:05:45 UTC
Permalink
Oh dear......religious Spam !! What it's all coming to ?

** Plonk **
Mike Dennett
2005-02-14 19:08:06 UTC
Permalink
Wow, so no matter how much of a dick I am during my corporeal life, how many
people I rip off, hurt, steal from, adulterize, sodomize, poke with a stick
etc., all I have to do is say "Jesus is Lord", recite the prayer, and it's
all forgiven? That's so cool! Now I know it's safe to hit on my neighbor's
wife.

Um, shouldn't I have to earn my place in heaven, by actually behaving as if
I want to go there?

I would tend to think it is of some concern to a Deity, that my actions
while living somewhat follow the doctrine of the particular religion that
calls such a being their Lord or their God. Instead it sounds like all I
have to do is wait until I'm on my deathbed, spout some banal prayer to
cleanse myself, like a hot shower for the soul after a lifetime of dirty
work, then off I go. So does that mean that this particular Lord cares
nothing about how people actually behave while on Earth, as long as they bow
down to him/her and say "okay, I'm a jerk, I've done all these bad things,
but hey, you're the Big Kahuna and I believe in you now!". That sounds
rather self-serving.

No wonder why there are so many atheists.
pyoung
2005-02-14 23:20:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Dennett
Wow, so no matter how much of a dick I am during my corporeal life,
how many people I rip off, hurt, steal from, adulterize, sodomize,
poke with a stick etc., all I have to do is say "Jesus is Lord",
recite the prayer, and it's all forgiven? That's so cool! Now I know
it's safe to hit on my neighbor's wife.
Sort of.. Most of the people in the Bible were not Holy people.
Post by Mike Dennett
Um, shouldn't I have to earn my place in heaven, by actually behaving
as if I want to go there?
Yes and no. Works will determine the reward in heaven. But there is only
one way to heaven.
Post by Mike Dennett
I would tend to think it is of some concern to a Deity, that my
actions while living somewhat follow the doctrine of the particular
religion that calls such a being their Lord or their God. Instead it
sounds like all I have to do is wait until I'm on my deathbed, spout
some banal prayer to cleanse myself, like a hot shower for the soul
after a lifetime of dirty work, then off I go.<
I wonder how many people in the path of the Tsumai or in the World Trade
Center thought they would exist long enough to be in their deathbed? But
looking at your scenario you'd be surprised that at that time few ever
repent.


So does that mean that
Post by Mike Dennett
this particular Lord cares nothing about how people actually behave
while on Earth, as long as they bow down to him/her and say "okay, I'm
a jerk, I've done all these bad things, but hey, you're the Big Kahuna
and I believe in you now!". That sounds rather self-serving.
No it doesn't. To admit you're wrong is a form of humbleness.
Post by Mike Dennett
No wonder why there are so many atheists.
Really? It takes just as much faith to believe there is no God.
Carl Dershem
2005-02-15 02:08:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyoung
Post by Mike Dennett
No wonder why there are so many atheists.
Really? It takes just as much faith to believe there is no God.
Nope - it just takes the wit to say "look - there's no evidence whatsoever
for this superstitious twaddle, so I'll just chuck it in the garbage where
it belongs."

cd
--
The difference between immorality and immortality is "T". I like Earl
Grey.
William Graham
2005-02-15 02:59:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyoung
Really? It takes just as much faith to believe there is no God.
As an atheist, I have to disagree with this. My belief system is based on my
estimate of the probability of anything I hear being true. If you were to
tell me that you have a new Ford in your garage, I would believe it because
there is no reason for you to lie, and Ford sells millions of new cars every
year. If you were to tell me that you have a pet elephant in your garage I
would not believe it because probably no one on earth has such a thing, and
my estimate of the probability of it being true is very small. My estimate
of the Christian myth being true is very small, therefore, I do not believe.
Faith has nothing to do with it. It is the Christians who need lots of faith
to believe in such a cock-a-manied myth, and not us atheists to not believe
in it.
Mike Pearson
2005-02-15 16:09:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Graham
Post by pyoung
Really? It takes just as much faith to believe there is no God.
As an atheist, I have to disagree with this. My belief system is based on my
estimate of the probability of anything I hear being true. If you were to
tell me that you have a new Ford in your garage, I would believe it because
there is no reason for you to lie, and Ford sells millions of new cars every
year. If you were to tell me that you have a pet elephant in your garage I
would not believe it because probably no one on earth has such a thing, and
my estimate of the probability of it being true is very small. My estimate
of the Christian myth being true is very small, therefore, I do not believe.
Faith has nothing to do with it. It is the Christians who need lots of faith
to believe in such a cock-a-manied myth, and not us atheists to not believe
in it.
That's a good reason why no faith is required to be a "Christian," but
goes farther towards defining yourself as an agnostic. There's no
proof of God or gods. Likewise, there is no proof of absence of same.
Assertion of either as fact requires faith, or belief without proof.
I'll wait on proof before I throw in with either side.
Double C
2005-02-15 18:35:34 UTC
Permalink
On 15 Feb 2005 08:09:50 -0800, "Mike Pearson"
Post by William Graham
Post by William Graham
Post by pyoung
Really? It takes just as much faith to believe there is no God.
As an atheist, I have to disagree with this. My belief system is
based on my
Post by William Graham
estimate of the probability of anything I hear being true. If you
were to
Post by William Graham
tell me that you have a new Ford in your garage, I would believe it
because
Post by William Graham
there is no reason for you to lie, and Ford sells millions of new
cars every
Post by William Graham
year. If you were to tell me that you have a pet elephant in your
garage I
Post by William Graham
would not believe it because probably no one on earth has such a
thing, and
Post by William Graham
my estimate of the probability of it being true is very small. My
estimate
Post by William Graham
of the Christian myth being true is very small, therefore, I do not
believe.
Post by William Graham
Faith has nothing to do with it. It is the Christians who need lots
of faith
Post by William Graham
to believe in such a cock-a-manied myth, and not us atheists to not
believe
Post by William Graham
in it.
That's a good reason why no faith is required to be a "Christian," but
goes farther towards defining yourself as an agnostic. There's no
proof of God or gods. Likewise, there is no proof of absence of same.
Assertion of either as fact requires faith, or belief without proof.
I'll wait on proof before I throw in with either side.
And what has any of this have to do with trumpet playing?
Mike Pearson
2005-02-15 22:53:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Double C
And what has any of this have to do with trumpet playing?
Without religion there's no church gigs?
Double C
2005-02-16 06:04:51 UTC
Permalink
On 15 Feb 2005 14:53:43 -0800, "Mike Pearson"
Post by Mike Pearson
Post by Double C
And what has any of this have to do with trumpet playing?
Without religion there's no church gigs?
{rimshot} :-}
William Graham
2005-02-15 22:40:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Graham
Post by William Graham
Post by pyoung
Really? It takes just as much faith to believe there is no God.
As an atheist, I have to disagree with this. My belief system is
based on my
Post by William Graham
estimate of the probability of anything I hear being true. If you
were to
Post by William Graham
tell me that you have a new Ford in your garage, I would believe it
because
Post by William Graham
there is no reason for you to lie, and Ford sells millions of new
cars every
Post by William Graham
year. If you were to tell me that you have a pet elephant in your
garage I
Post by William Graham
would not believe it because probably no one on earth has such a
thing, and
Post by William Graham
my estimate of the probability of it being true is very small. My
estimate
Post by William Graham
of the Christian myth being true is very small, therefore, I do not
believe.
Post by William Graham
Faith has nothing to do with it. It is the Christians who need lots
of faith
Post by William Graham
to believe in such a cock-a-manied myth, and not us atheists to not
believe
Post by William Graham
in it.
That's a good reason why no faith is required to be a "Christian," but
goes farther towards defining yourself as an agnostic. There's no
proof of God or gods. Likewise, there is no proof of absence of same.
Assertion of either as fact requires faith, or belief without proof.
I'll wait on proof before I throw in with either side.
Yes, but there is no proof that there is no purple giraffe in my garage
right now either....But I am not about to bother to open the door to the
garage and look. A lot of the things you think you take on faith, are really
just the practical application of your estimate of the probability of their
being true/untrue plus an estimate of the damages done if you are wrong. We
live in a practical world where we have to make educated guesses about a
variety of things all the time. If we didn't, and demanded absolute proof of
everything, we would hardly be able to do anything from day to day. I would
be afraid to get out of bed in the morning.....There is a big difference
between admitting that there is some probability that a supreme being
exists, and accepting the entire Christian myth, from Genesis to the last
book of the New Testament....In my case, since I can't believe in the whole
ball of wax, I might as well not believe in any of it. What's the sense in
believing in a God that created the whole universe, and then left, perhaps
never to be seen again? - If he's not around to help you out in your times
of need, then what good is he? The answer, to me, is, "No good at all". So,
why bother to believe in his existence at all? Whether I believe in him or
not, will make no difference in my life at all, so I consider his existence
to be the same as the purple giraffe in my garage......Of not enough
probability to even bother to open the door and look. IOW, there is a
practical atheism as well as a philosophical atheism, just as there are
practical religions as well as philosophical religions. As a practical
matter, it is unlikely that there are intelligent beings that are any larger
or more powerful than dinosaurs. To believe in one that is capable of
creating a whole universe, with more galaxies in it than there are grains of
sand on all the beaches of earth, is just too hard for me to swallow, and,
since there is no door to that garage for me to open and look, I will just
find something more practical to do with my time....Like practice.....
Mike Pearson
2005-02-15 23:21:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Graham
Yes, but there is no proof that there is no purple giraffe in my garage
right now either....But I am not about to bother to open the door to the
garage and look.
But you can't *know* until you do.
Post by William Graham
A lot of the things you think you take on faith, are really
just the practical application of your estimate of the probability of their
being true/untrue plus an estimate of the damages done if you are
wrong.

Not necessarily true. Our experiences give us a database to draw from.
Science demonstrates that certain actions will have certain results.
It isn't faith or an estimate of probability to get into an elevator.
It's the culmination of years of structural and mechanical engineering
study. It's not faith or probability that the sun will rise. We know
why it does, and that something *really* different would have to happen
for it not to rise. It's not even faith or probability that makes me
know a c is going to come out when I blow my horn a certain way.
Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results.

We
Post by William Graham
live in a practical world where we have to make educated guesses about a
variety of things all the time. If we didn't, and demanded absolute proof of
everything, we would hardly be able to do anything from day to day. I would
be afraid to get out of bed in the morning.....
I'm terrified of roller coasters until I'm on board. The only way I
can get on is to know that the designer, the builder, and the operator
are experts. No state fair rides for me...

There is a big difference
Post by William Graham
between admitting that there is some probability that a supreme being
exists, and accepting the entire Christian myth, from Genesis to the last
book of the New Testament....In my case, since I can't believe in the whole
ball of wax, I might as well not believe in any of it. What's the sense in
believing in a God that created the whole universe, and then left, perhaps
never to be seen again? - If he's not around to help you out in your times
of need, then what good is he? The answer, to me, is, "No good at all". So,
why bother to believe in his existence at all? Whether I believe in him or
not, will make no difference in my life at all, so I consider his existence
to be the same as the purple giraffe in my garage......Of not enough
probability to even bother to open the door and look.
All taken on faith.


IOW, there is a
Post by William Graham
practical atheism as well as a philosophical atheism, just as there are
practical religions as well as philosophical religions. As a
practical
Post by William Graham
matter, it is unlikely that there are intelligent beings that are any larger
or more powerful than dinosaurs.
It's more unlikely that there aren't. If intelligent life on this
planet was a one in a billion event, there could still be thousands of
intelligent aliens out there, developing under much different physical
conditions, thus not making bulk a restriction.

To believe in one that is capable of
Post by William Graham
creating a whole universe, with more galaxies in it than there are grains of
sand on all the beaches of earth, is just too hard for me to swallow, and,
since there is no door to that garage for me to open and look, I will just
find something more practical to do with my time....Like
practice.....

The other side of that coin: How could so much have developed at
random chance? Not that I believe in "intelligent design," but
something like the universe would be a weekend project for an
omnipotent being. So I wait for proof. I should have it shortly after
I shuffle off this mortal coil, and I don't mind waiting. I just want
to go home tonight, open my garage door, and find a big box of chops
for this weekend. Maybe I'll practice, too.
William Graham
2005-02-16 02:31:30 UTC
Permalink
"Mike Pearson" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message

It's not even faith or probability that makes me
Post by Mike Pearson
know a c is going to come out when I blow my horn a certain way.
Speaking of this....How do you know? - I have a great deal of trouble
getting the right note right off the get-go. Quite a few compositions start
out with the trumpets hitting a high note, or a staccato ff note right at
the beginning. If the last piece was five minutes ago in a different key, it
is very unlikely that I will be able to hit that first note right on the
money.....I have excellent pitch, but it is relative....I have always envied
those with absolute pitch. They can (apparently) "hear" the note before they
play it.......
Carl Dershem
2005-02-16 03:48:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Pearson
It's not even faith or probability that makes me
Post by Mike Pearson
know a c is going to come out when I blow my horn a certain way.
Speaking of this....How do you know? - I have a great deal of trouble
getting the right note right off the get-go. Quite a few compositions
start out with the trumpets hitting a high note, or a staccato ff note
right at the beginning. If the last piece was five minutes ago in a
different key, it is very unlikely that I will be able to hit that
first note right on the money.....I have excellent pitch, but it is
relative....I have always envied those with absolute pitch. They can
(apparently) "hear" the note before they play it.......
That just takes practice.

cd
--
The difference between immorality and immortality is "T". I like Earl
Grey.
Mike Pearson
2005-02-16 16:59:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Pearson
It's not even faith or probability that makes me
Post by Mike Pearson
know a c is going to come out when I blow my horn a certain way.
Speaking of this....How do you know? - I have a great deal of trouble
getting the right note right off the get-go. Quite a few compositions start
out with the trumpets hitting a high note, or a staccato ff note right at
the beginning. If the last piece was five minutes ago in a different key, it
is very unlikely that I will be able to hit that first note right on the
money.....I have excellent pitch, but it is relative....I have always envied
those with absolute pitch. They can (apparently) "hear" the note before they
play it.......
I've been playing the same horn for 23 years. For most notes, I just
know. Sure there's times when I go from playing an F part on a Bb horn
to playing an E part on a C trumpet to an A part on the picc., and I
get confused, but usually by the time the concert rolls around, I've
figured out how to get my head straight.
Carl Dershem
2005-02-16 03:48:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Pearson
The other side of that coin: How could so much have developed at
random chance?
If you look at science rationally and objectively, you'll quickly see that
the myth of "random chance" is entirely unsupported. The very laws of
physics narrow the potential chances of *anything* happening by drastic
amounts. Multiply those odds times the (literally) astronomical number of
particles in the universe, and the odds of life as we know it developing
becomes almost a certainty.
Post by Mike Pearson
Not that I believe in "intelligent design," but
something like the universe would be a weekend project for an
omnipotent being.
Which one? "Omnipotent" is a word with no correlation to the real world,
so invoking one is a meaningless exercise.
Post by Mike Pearson
So I wait for proof. I should have it shortly after
I shuffle off this mortal coil, and I don't mind waiting.
And if you just ... end, you've wasted how much time? As the philosopher
said "religion is a lot like dandruff - a lot of people spend a lot of time
messing with it, and accomplish very little."
Post by Mike Pearson
I just want
to go home tonight, open my garage door, and find a big box of chops
for this weekend. Maybe I'll practice, too.
Do the second more, and the odds are the second will be more likely to
appear.

cd
--
The difference between immorality and immortality is "T". I like Earl
Grey.
Carl Tuba
2005-02-16 16:57:04 UTC
Permalink
See:
http://www.drdino.com for scientific clarity
Post by Carl Dershem
If you look at science rationally and objectively, you'll quickly see that
the myth of "random chance" is entirely unsupported. The very laws of
physics narrow the potential chances of *anything* happening by drastic
amounts. Multiply those odds times the (literally) astronomical number of
particles in the universe, and the odds of life as we know it
developing
Post by Carl Dershem
becomes almost a certainty.
Post by Mike Pearson
Not that I believe in "intelligent design," but
something like the universe would be a weekend project for an
omnipotent being.
Which one? "Omnipotent" is a word with no correlation to the real world,
so invoking one is a meaningless exercise.
Post by Mike Pearson
So I wait for proof. I should have it shortly after
I shuffle off this mortal coil, and I don't mind waiting.
And if you just ... end, you've wasted how much time? As the
philosopher
Post by Carl Dershem
said "religion is a lot like dandruff - a lot of people spend a lot of time
messing with it, and accomplish very little."
Post by Mike Pearson
I just want
to go home tonight, open my garage door, and find a big box of chops
for this weekend. Maybe I'll practice, too.
Do the second more, and the odds are the second will be more likely to
appear.
cd
--
The difference between immorality and immortality is "T". I like Earl
Grey.
Mike Pearson
2005-02-16 17:13:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carl Dershem
And if you just ... end, you've wasted how much time?
I've loved and been loved.I've been happy, and made people happy, I've
been sad and made people sad. I've been angry and made people angry at
me. I spend my days doing work I enjoy, hopefully making the world a
little better off because of it. I spend my nights with my family,
doing things that I love doing (just am not quite ready to try living
off them). Someday, I expect to just ...end, and I will not have
wasted one single minute.
Post by Carl Dershem
Post by Mike Pearson
I just want
to go home tonight, open my garage door, and find a big box of chops
for this weekend. Maybe I'll practice, too.
Do the second more, and the odds are the second will be more likely to
appear.
I'll assume you mean do the latter to acquire the former (although I
like the instant-winner idea, too) and I couldn't agree more. Anything
worth doing is worth practicing.
William Graham
2005-02-16 21:56:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Pearson
I've loved and been loved.I've been happy, and made people happy, I've
been sad and made people sad. I've been angry and made people angry at
me. I spend my days doing work I enjoy, hopefully making the world a
little better off because of it. I spend my nights with my family,
doing things that I love doing (just am not quite ready to try living
off them). Someday, I expect to just ...end, and I will not have
wasted one single minute.
Some for the glories of this world, and some
Long for the prophet's paradise to come.
Ah....Take the cash, and let the credit go,
Nor heed the rumble of a distant drum.
Carl Dershem
2005-02-16 03:41:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Pearson
That's a good reason why no faith is required to be a "Christian," but
goes farther towards defining yourself as an agnostic. There's no
proof of God or gods. Likewise, there is no proof of absence of same.
Assertion of either as fact requires faith, or belief without proof.
I'll wait on proof before I throw in with either side.
Absence of any evidence whatsoever towards the existence of *any* gods
(much less the biblical ones) goes a long way toward "proof," if you ask
me.

cd
--
The difference between immorality and immortality is "T". I like Earl
Grey.
Joel
2005-02-16 07:21:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carl Dershem
Post by Mike Pearson
That's a good reason why no faith is required to be a "Christian," but
goes farther towards defining yourself as an agnostic. There's no
proof of God or gods. Likewise, there is no proof of absence of same.
Assertion of either as fact requires faith, or belief without proof.
I'll wait on proof before I throw in with either side.
Absence of any evidence whatsoever towards the existence of *any* gods
(much less the biblical ones) goes a long way toward "proof," if you ask
me.
cd
The possible existence of God is an interesting hypothesis but without
practical consequence. The main problem is the existence of religions.
Since two thousand years, religions are by far the main cause of wars
and massacres on the whole Earth. If religion is supposed to bring
brotherhood among people, well it is missed.
The scenario is always the same:
All weakly educated peoples attribute naturally a supernatural cause
to that they do not understand.
One day, a guy says to them " hey, boys, I received God's visit who
asked me to lead you in the right way ".
The guy amasses the maximum of power and wealth, while imposing to
them arbitrary and unpleasant constraints, for example: do not eat
that, do not make love without permission, etc. These constraints are
just intended to make people feel every day the power of the tyrant.
Obviously, when another guy does the same thing in a nearby tribe,
confrontation is inevitable.
That's why I think that it is necessary to reduce the influence of
religions, whatever we think of the probability of existence of one or
several gods.

Joel
http://la.trompette.free.fr
zoot
2005-02-17 17:58:12 UTC
Permalink
greed is the cause. religion is just a tool.
pyoung
2005-02-18 00:40:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Graham
Post by pyoung
Really? It takes just as much faith to believe there is no God.
As an atheist, I have to disagree with this. My belief system is based
on my estimate of the probability of anything I hear being true.
You just defined faith (Hebrews 11). One thing can be certain faith or
not, we will all eventually know if there is a God or not.

It still takes faith to believe either way.
William Graham
2005-02-18 06:57:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyoung
Post by William Graham
Post by pyoung
Really? It takes just as much faith to believe there is no God.
As an atheist, I have to disagree with this. My belief system is based
on my estimate of the probability of anything I hear being true.
You just defined faith (Hebrews 11). One thing can be certain faith or
not, we will all eventually know if there is a God or not.
No, only if there is a "life" after death will we "know".....If us atheists
are right, no one will "know" anything after he/she dies. So I believe that
no one will, "eventually know if there is a God or not."
Post by pyoung
It still takes faith to believe either way.
It takes me no more faith to believe in my atheism than it takes me to step
back a step without looking behind me to see if the floor is still there as
it was a second before. If you call that "faith", well, then yes. It takes
us all faith to go about the business of living throughout the day. There
are some things we have to assume in order to not be hopelessly insane, and
sit crouched, staring at the floor all day long. But I have no reason to
assume that the Christian myth is true, and I manage to live a full life
without it.
Russ Button
2005-02-18 17:20:26 UTC
Permalink
I know that Christ died for my sins.

I'm doing my best not to disappoint him.
zoot
2005-02-18 17:53:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Russ Button
I know that Christ died for my sins.
don't spose it's cause you've been brain washed
Post by Russ Button
I'm doing my best not to disappoint him.
being good is just common sense. use it and you won't disappoint any
one.

just remember that as a member of a cult there's a good chance that
some day you will be part of a mob killing people that don't think
like you. that is not being good. it's just what cults are for. it
wasn't that long ago that you could give the church money and your sins
would go away. that's one of the things that got walt Luther's panties
in a bunch.
William Graham
2005-02-18 22:31:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by zoot
Post by Russ Button
I know that Christ died for my sins.
don't spose it's cause you've been brain washed
Post by Russ Button
I'm doing my best not to disappoint him.
being good is just common sense. use it and you won't disappoint any
one.
just remember that as a member of a cult there's a good chance that
some day you will be part of a mob killing people that don't think
like you. that is not being good. it's just what cults are for. it
wasn't that long ago that you could give the church money and your sins
would go away. that's one of the things that got walt Luther's panties
in a bunch.
You can still do that. AAMOF, there's one church that will sell you a get
out of sinning reservation pass.....If you are going to have a wild party,
and know that you are going to commit sins in advance, but are afraid that
you won't make it to the confession booth in time the next day. (You might
die before you can confess) You can use the "sin reservation" to confess in
advance, and thereby escape Hell. - No kidding......And they wonder why
people like me laugh at them........
pyoung
2005-02-19 00:23:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by zoot
being good is just common sense. use it and you won't disappoint any
one.
Exactly where do you think that common sense came from or most of the laws
of the land?
Post by zoot
just remember that as a member of a cult there's a good chance that
some day you will be part of a mob killing people that don't think
like you. that is not being good. it's just what cults are for. it
Your point?
Post by zoot
wasn't that long ago that you could give the church money and your sins
would go away. that's one of the things that got walt Luther's panties
in a bunch.
What church is this?
zoot
2005-02-19 21:13:35 UTC
Permalink
i ask myself do i want someone to kill me rob me covet my wife etc. and
my answer is no. my next question is it o k if i do these things to
someone. this is truth. if someone tells me there is someone so heavy
that they can invent existence but are so needy that i will have to
suffer forever for not validating him. that is so obviously stupid that
i know this person has been trained to believe what they have been told
by the members of whatever religion dominated the neighborhood they
grew up in. blindly. without question. these people are dangerous
followers and can be lead to do anything. we now have a president that
thinks god wants him to be president. halliberton wants him to be
president.

you ask " What church is this?"
try the one the protestants ran away from. then they started another
one. they did some thinking but didn't quite figure it out. hay god, if
you read this and there is something you think i should know just tell
me. the people on this planet have all kinds of crap they want me to
believe. and not going along with the program seems to be unnecessarily
dangerous. they tend to kill people that don't buy the stories they
believe even if they are told you say don't kill. i was also wondering,
the bible says to stay away from churches. why don't you just erase
them and the people in them?
William Graham
2005-02-19 21:56:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyoung
Post by zoot
being good is just common sense. use it and you won't disappoint any
one.
Exactly where do you think that common sense came from or most of the laws
of the land?
I know that the answer you want is religion. But in fact, in order for
people to live together in a society that is viable, laws of conduct had to
develop, and there is evidence that these would have developed without
religion. The evidence is in societies where the religion is completely
different from Christianity, or any of the modern religions that are similar
to Christianity. Even among very primitive societies, where they believe in
evil spirits, laws of conduct have developed that enable the people to get
along with one another. One example of this are the Dobu, on the island of
Papua New-Guinea, studied by the famous anthropologist, Margaret Meade.
pyoung
2005-02-21 23:59:11 UTC
Permalink
I know that the answer you want is religion.<
Wrong. God gave those laws-before they were written. They are innate.
William Graham
2005-02-22 03:07:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyoung
I know that the answer you want is religion.<
Wrong. God gave those laws-before they were written. They are innate.
I don't think God (at least your god) ever spoke to the Dobu........And
therein lies another contradiction....Why doesn't God give a damn about the
Dobu? Like the Neanderthals, He is happy to consign them all to Hell........
pyoung
2005-02-22 18:19:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Graham
I don't think God (at least your god) ever spoke to the
Dobu........And therein lies another contradiction....Why doesn't God
give a damn about the Dobu? Like the Neanderthals, He is happy to
consign them all to Hell........
Your statements are based on your own assumption. You or I have no
evidence that God spoke to them or sent them to hell.

Since I haven't seen an Neanderthal-nor have you other than a prototype
from bones. I use the theory like atheist and believe Neanderthals never
existed.
After all much of that came from a THEORY (which is not fact).
William Graham
2005-02-22 20:34:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyoung
Post by William Graham
I don't think God (at least your god) ever spoke to the
Dobu........And therein lies another contradiction....Why doesn't God
give a damn about the Dobu? Like the Neanderthals, He is happy to
consign them all to Hell........
Your statements are based on your own assumption. You or I have no
evidence that God spoke to them or sent them to hell.
Since I haven't seen an Neanderthal-nor have you other than a prototype
from bones. I use the theory like atheist and believe Neanderthals never
existed.
After all much of that came from a THEORY (which is not fact).
Well......All them bones must have belonged to somebody. - But that is
beside my point. My point was, (and is) that all the people and cultures
that never "got the word", past and present, are (according to you
Christians) not saved, or consigned to Hell. This includes people like the
Neanderthals (if they existed), as well as people like the Dobu, who didn't
have any exposure to Western civilization until well into the 18th century.
IOW, if Jesus was going to die for our sins, he wasn't very good at
advertising the fact. The little niche of civilization that got the word was
only a drop in the bucket of a world chock full of lost souls.....Even as
late as a hundred years ago, there were dozens of tribal groups who never
heard of him. You'd think God would have had several dozen sons, and sent
one to Australia, one to Borneo, etc, etc......
j***@yahoo.com
2005-02-22 22:27:32 UTC
Permalink
A person who was had never heard the Good News would still see the
world around him and know it had to have been made by someone greater
than himself. From the apostle Paul's letter to the Romans, chapter 1,
verses 19 & 20:

19 For the truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put
this knowledge in their hearts. 20 From the time the world was created,
people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can
clearly see his invisible qualities his eternal power and divine
nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God.

I can't recall where it is written, but we will be judged based on what
we know. God doesn't want ANYONE to go to hell, and He doesn't play
tricks.

-jim hickle
zoot
2005-02-23 05:45:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@yahoo.com
A person who was had never heard the Good News would still see the
world around him and know it had to have been made by someone greater
than himself.
why does god have to be somone?

From the apostle Paul's letter to the Romans, chapter 1,
well if paul said so it must be true. what did paul have to say about
all the crappie design ideas. b t w how about that intelligent design
argument? have they taken a good look at the design? i don't think
intelligent is the right word.
Post by j***@yahoo.com
19 For the truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put
this knowledge in their hearts. 20 From the time the world was
created,
Post by j***@yahoo.com
people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can
clearly see his invisible qualities his eternal power and divine
nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God.
I can't recall where it is written, but we will be judged based on what
we know. God doesn't want ANYONE to go to hell, and He doesn't play
tricks.
-jim hickle
mr_whatever
2005-02-23 06:31:13 UTC
Permalink
Zoot sez:

well if paul said so it must be true

Yeh, but what about Ringo?
Carl Dershem
2005-02-24 01:56:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by zoot
well if paul said so it must be true
Yeh, but what about Ringo?
If you want to believe a drummer, that's your choice.

cd
--
The difference between immorality and immortality is "T". I like Earl
Grey.
j***@yahoo.com
2005-02-19 16:01:06 UTC
Permalink
From: "zoot" <***@ns-design.com> -
Date: 18 Feb 2005 09:53:15 -0800
Post by zoot
Post by Russ Button
I know that Christ died for my sins.
don't spose it's cause you've been brain washed
Could be zoot who has been deceived.

You're going to spend eternity somewhere. Do you want to spend it
somewhere pleasant, or would you prefer to be chased around by the
worst people that ever lived?
Carl Dershem
2005-02-19 18:03:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@yahoo.com
You're going to spend eternity somewhere.
Do you have any objective evidence for that?

cd
--
The difference between immorality and immortality is "T". I like Earl
Grey.
zoot
2005-02-19 21:47:49 UTC
Permalink
Could be zoot who has been deceived.

if i don't believe, how can i be deceived.

You're going to spend eternity somewhere.

that's what some say. i don't see why i would think that. Do you want
to spend it
somewhere pleasant, or would you prefer to be chased around by the
worst people that ever lived?

like who, people that weren't brainwashed exactly the same way as you?
like gandhi and buda. one of the other things i find hard to believe is
that intelligent people can't think past that stuff. are they lazy are
they afraid? blind faith is a hard one to figure. actually i'll bet
that if i took a close enough at any religious person i could figure
out what drove them to it.
one thing i know is the world would be better off without cults. i
really think eventually we could learn to be responsible for our
actions.
William Graham
2005-02-19 22:00:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Date: 18 Feb 2005 09:53:15 -0800
Post by zoot
Post by Russ Button
I know that Christ died for my sins.
don't spose it's cause you've been brain washed
Could be zoot who has been deceived.
You're going to spend eternity somewhere. Do you want to spend it
somewhere pleasant, or would you prefer to be chased around by the
worst people that ever lived?
How about spending it in the same place I was before I was conceived.....A
place called, "non existence"? IOW, why must I spend it anywhere, being
chased around or not?
Mike Dennett
2005-02-18 19:40:40 UTC
Permalink
Hi Russ,

Without insulting you or your faith, I am simply curious:

You say you know that He did so. Do you "know" this? Or do you "believe" it?
One I can understand and respect. The other I view quite differently.

There is a fundamental difference between the two statements that lies at
the core of many of the comments made on this "silly" thread in which so
many people seem interested in participating.
Post by Russ Button
I know that Christ died for my sins.
I'm doing my best not to disappoint him.
Linda Fox
2005-02-18 23:14:34 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:40:40 -0500, "Mike Dennett"
Post by Mike Dennett
You say you know that He did so. Do you "know" this? Or do you "believe" it?
One I can understand and respect. The other I view quite differently.
Out of interest, which way round did you mean that? It reads as though
you'd respect him for "knowing" but not for "believing" - did you
really mean that?

Linda ff
Mike Dennett
2005-02-21 17:49:29 UTC
Permalink
No - I meant I would respect someone for saying they firmly believed
something non-concrete, more than I would if they said they "knew" it.
Perhaps the word respect is too partisan, maybe the term is understand or
comprehend, or?? I may not have written that thought clearly enough. And
that doesn't imply I think they are a jerk for "knowing" something, it is
just that to me (and I stress, "to me") someone who says they "know"
something that is subject to belief or faith, is somewhat incomprehensible.
If somebody believes something so strongly that they feel they "know" it,
well, whatever. But the term "knowing" means that there is no room for
discussion, debate, or disagreement, and I don't see that or understand that
the same way as I would completely understand stubborn faith. I really was
just looking for some understanding. I believe things strongly too, but I
only know things I have directly experienced or that have no margin for
discussion, such as "if I stick my finger into that bunsen burner flame, it
will hurt." The word "know" is, again to me, tantamount to saying "I am
right, and you are wrong, and there is no discussion about that fact." The
word "believe" respects my right to have other opinions. To me, one is the
word of the zealot, the other the word of the faithful.

Mike D.
Post by Linda Fox
On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:40:40 -0500, "Mike Dennett"
Post by Mike Dennett
You say you know that He did so. Do you "know" this? Or do you "believe" it?
One I can understand and respect. The other I view quite differently.
Out of interest, which way round did you mean that? It reads as though
you'd respect him for "knowing" but not for "believing" - did you
really mean that?
Linda ff
William Graham
2005-02-21 19:51:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Dennett
No - I meant I would respect someone for saying they firmly believed
something non-concrete, more than I would if they said they "knew" it.
Perhaps the word respect is too partisan, maybe the term is understand or
comprehend, or?? I may not have written that thought clearly enough. And
that doesn't imply I think they are a jerk for "knowing" something, it is
just that to me (and I stress, "to me") someone who says they "know"
something that is subject to belief or faith, is somewhat
incomprehensible.
If somebody believes something so strongly that they feel they "know" it,
well, whatever. But the term "knowing" means that there is no room for
discussion, debate, or disagreement, and I don't see that or understand that
the same way as I would completely understand stubborn faith. I really was
just looking for some understanding. I believe things strongly too, but I
only know things I have directly experienced or that have no margin for
discussion, such as "if I stick my finger into that bunsen burner flame, it
will hurt." The word "know" is, again to me, tantamount to saying "I am
right, and you are wrong, and there is no discussion about that fact." The
word "believe" respects my right to have other opinions. To me, one is the
word of the zealot, the other the word of the faithful.
Mike D.
But these definitions are mostly semantics. To "know" means different things
to different people. To a mathematician, there is some probability, however
small, that nothing really exists at all. So he might say, "We can't really
know anything". In my case, I go through life playing the probabilities, as
it were. While I realize that I don't really know anything, I also realize
that in order to live, I have to "take a chance" that a lot of things are
true.
If Jesus himself, were to walk through this wall in front of me, and put
his hand on my shoulder and say, "Follow me, my son". I would go to the
nearest psychiatric hospital and check myself in for evaluation, because I
am that certain that no such entity really exists. So, I go around saying
that I "know" that there is no God. But understand that this is just a
convenient way of saying that in my estimation, the probability of there
being a God is too small for me to consider worrying about it......
Mike Dennett
2005-02-21 21:24:11 UTC
Permalink
True enough. I emphasized the phrase "to me". When I hear the phrase "know",
I think in my terms. Though in the context of this whole thread, I "believe"
the phrase is often/sometimes used with a little more zeal than "usual"?

Even I am getting tired of this thread now, and I think I stirred the pot
originally... ;-)
Post by William Graham
But these definitions are mostly semantics. To "know" means different things
to different people.
pyoung
2005-02-22 00:01:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Dennett
Even I am getting tired of this thread now, and I think I stirred the
pot originally... ;-)
LOL!
Russ Button
2005-02-22 06:10:12 UTC
Permalink
OK. The one problem with the written word on the Internet
is that when your tounge is planted firmly in your cheek,
some people don't see that.

The line about "Christ died for my sins, so I try not to
disappoint him" means that I'm out there being as sinful
as possible. Good grief. You wouldn't want all that
sacrifice by the Son of God to go to waste would you?

Seriously though, I'm not a Christian. I left that spiritual
path some 35 years ago. That being said, I lead a pretty
clean life, pay my taxes, stay true to my wife, etc.

You may now resume your regular activity of freaking out.

Russ
Post by Mike Dennett
Hi Russ,
You say you know that He did so. Do you "know" this? Or do you "believe" it?
One I can understand and respect. The other I view quite differently.
There is a fundamental difference between the two statements that lies at
the core of many of the comments made on this "silly" thread in which so
many people seem interested in participating.
Post by Russ Button
I know that Christ died for my sins.
I'm doing my best not to disappoint him.
Russ Button
2005-02-22 18:09:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Dennett
Hi Russ,
As I mentioned in another post, I am not Christian. I put
up that line about Christ and sin as a bad joke. It was so
bad nobody got it.
Post by Mike Dennett
You say you know that He did so. Do you "know" this? Or do you "believe" it?
One I can understand and respect. The other I view quite differently.
Though I'm not a Christian, I have nothing to say about
whether Jesus existed or not, or about what he is purported
to have said. I grew up in the Christian church and at about
the age of 18 came to the conclusion that while I had an
unshakable conviction in the ineffable existence of something,
which for lack of a better word, would be God, I also realized
that Truth was a thing unto itself. I came to realize that
even if Jesus was everything that the church said he was, the
things he said would not be more true, just because he said
them. As a result, Jesus became only a messenger to me and
not the message itself, which in turn made me not to be a
Christian.

In the years since, I've had my own experiences of a spiritual
nature. One of the things I've learned is that we each come
to our own relationship with Life/God/whatever_you_wanna_call_it.
I love talking to people about spiritual issues, but this isn't
the forum for it. The last time I looked, this was
rec.music.makers.trumpet, not rec.god.talkers or whatever.

If anyone want's to engage me in conversation about stuff of
a spiritual nature, feel free to drop me a line at my personal
e-mail address

russ at button dot com

The last time I looked, some of the most strident religious
beliefs I ever saw had to do with model of trumpet was the
best. Anyone out there play a Marcinkiewicz?

Russ
Mike Dennett
2005-02-22 19:47:38 UTC
Permalink
LOL at my own expense - I didn't realize you were kidding around! (insert
image of large jet zooming over my head - doh!)

Yeah, apparently this is a trumpet forum, but the odd weird OT thread
doesn't seem to be the end of the world. At least plenty of people jumped
in. And, it was amusing while it lasted.

As for the connection - well, I remember all the angels in Monty Python and
the Holy Grail playing herald trumpets with their butts. How's that?

As to zeal - is it mouthpieces or trumpets that generate more? Leave that to
another thread..
Post by Russ Button
Post by Mike Dennett
Hi Russ,
As I mentioned in another post, I am not Christian. I put
up that line about Christ and sin as a bad joke. It was so
bad nobody got it.
Mike Dennett
2005-02-15 15:57:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Dennett
So does that mean that
Post by Mike Dennett
this particular Lord cares nothing about how people actually behave
while on Earth, as long as they bow down to him/her and say "okay, I'm
a jerk, I've done all these bad things, but hey, you're the Big Kahuna
and I believe in you now!". That sounds rather self-serving.
No it doesn't. To admit you're wrong is a form of humbleness.
Yes, but not to do wrong in the first place is far more impressive than
simply reciting a prayer by rote and professing your belief and can I please
go to Heaven now? Humbleness is a human virtue. For someone to be virtuous
they need to demonstrate virtue during their life, not simply to hand in
their get-out-of-jail-free card at the end of it all, however that may come
to pass. If a criminal stands before a judge, bows his head humbly and
proclaims that he is very sorry that he broke into someone's house, murdered
them and stole their valuables - is he then exhonerated? No - he should have
thought about it before he did it, and he is obviously someone capable of
inflicting further harm on the rest of society. Therefore he is punished,
and society hopes/trusts that the memory of that punishment is sufficient
(issues with the justice system notwithstanding) to convince that criminal
to start acting more human. Frankly I think the punishments should be a lot
more harsh (Cause and effect - go figure. Works for kids.) but that's a
problem to be worked out by us.
Post by Mike Dennett
Post by Mike Dennett
No wonder why there are so many atheists.
Really? It takes just as much faith to believe there is no God.
Really? To you perhaps, but to the countless non-believers out there it
takes no more "faith" than it took to stop believing in fairy tales as a
child. I see no evidence of a God, anywhere. I see plenty of evidence that
there is no such thing though. That doesn't take faith, it's simple.

Believe in what you will, but I'd rather spend my time dealing with life in
the present rather than some faint hope that goes against all logic and
evidence. If God exists, why not simply show mankind that He does? What's
the harm in that? He'd have throngs, nations, half a planet full of
ever-faithful believers, reformed sinners, people who would then live in
fear of Him and start shaping up their acts Right Now, if all he did was
take a few minutes out of His busy schedule and appear on Letterman to smote
a small gathering of child molesters and crack dealers. Reduce them to ashes
right then and there. Poof! Bingo. Instant faith and devotion. No more
religious hypocrites, you'd have the real deal right now.

Tough act to follow though. I'd like to play in the backup band for that
show.
zoot
2005-02-15 21:37:05 UTC
Permalink
Mike Dennett wrote:
I'd like to play in the backup band for that
show.
so would gandhi but he's busy burning in a lake of fire cause he didn't
kiss our gods ass
j***@yahoo.com
2005-02-16 16:48:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Dennett
I'd like to play in the backup band for that
show.
so would gandhi but he's busy burning in a lake of fire cause he didn't
kiss our gods ass
Shame on you.
zoot
2005-02-16 17:57:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by zoot
Post by Mike Dennett
I'd like to play in the backup band for that
show.
so would gandhi but he's busy burning in a lake of fire cause he
didn't
Post by Mike Dennett
kiss our gods ass
Shame on you.
what could be more needy than a god that craves constant validation
from humans. what could be more hypocritical than a god that tells us
love your enemies and your neighbors. and then creates hell for hitler
gandhi and the devil to suffer in for ever. sounds to me like someone
was made in the human image. now the village idiot thinks god wanted
him to be president. look out!!!!!!! halliberton wanted him to be
president. the blinded by faith being led by the the blinded by greed.
the playing field takes a giant lean to the right and more than ever
the privileged class get to take take take while the working class get
to work worry and die. the greedy have already spent the social
security surplus trillions and now they are going after the rest of it
. and the old people decide weather to give up medicine or food as the
people that never had to have a real job or get drafted get tax
breaks.if we could only solve that nasty problem of the wealthy not
having enough wealth. well since i have doubts about religion and other
authority i stand a chance of being killed by someone with god on their
side. that is what religion is for, getting people to not question
doing the wrong thing and that's what trumpets are all about.
j***@yahoo.com
2005-02-16 21:36:16 UTC
Permalink
If you don't want anything to do with God, wouldn't it be cruel for
him to make you spend eternity with Him in Heaven?
zoot
2005-02-18 05:40:55 UTC
Permalink
let's all sit on a cloud and play a harp forever
William Graham
2005-02-18 06:58:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by zoot
let's all sit on a cloud and play a harp forever
I wonder if Gabriel will let me trade instruments with him for a
while.......
Carl Dershem
2005-02-18 16:35:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Graham
Post by zoot
let's all sit on a cloud and play a harp forever
I wonder if Gabriel will let me trade instruments with him for a
while.......
As a kid of strange tangent (and in this thread, that's not hard) how many
of you have seen the old Jack Benny film "The horn blows at midnight"?
It's a silly little picture about a low-level session trumpet player in (I
believe) the 1930's (Checking IMDB - 1945!) who falls asleep during a radio
broadcast and has a dream about being a trumpeter from heaven (one of
Gabriel's flunkies).

It makes it easy to believe Benny was NOT a trumpet player. :)

cd
--
The difference between immorality and immortality is "T". I like Earl
Grey.
William Graham
2005-02-18 22:25:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carl Dershem
Post by William Graham
Post by zoot
let's all sit on a cloud and play a harp forever
I wonder if Gabriel will let me trade instruments with him for a
while.......
As a kid of strange tangent (and in this thread, that's not hard) how many
of you have seen the old Jack Benny film "The horn blows at midnight"?
It's a silly little picture about a low-level session trumpet player in (I
believe) the 1930's (Checking IMDB - 1945!) who falls asleep during a radio
broadcast and has a dream about being a trumpeter from heaven (one of
Gabriel's flunkies).
It makes it easy to believe Benny was NOT a trumpet player. :)
Benny was my favorite comedian when I was young. (before TV) I remember that
he got a lot of mileage out of, "Horn Blows at Midnight" by making jokes
about it, but I never saw it.
mr_whatever
2005-02-22 07:42:12 UTC
Permalink
Gabriel plays an Olds Ambassador. You sure about that trade?
John, Debbie, Bobby, and Tommy
2005-02-22 11:38:52 UTC
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Post by mr_whatever
Gabriel plays an Olds Ambassador. You sure about that trade?
An Olds? Well, OK. He can't do a good shake, though. Only long tones.
John
pyoung
2005-02-22 18:22:57 UTC
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Post by mr_whatever
Gabriel plays an Olds Ambassador. You sure about that trade?
He plays a King 2055T.
j***@yahoo.com
2005-02-18 15:23:30 UTC
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What, you're going to give up the trumpet?
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